The other day, I was talking with my dad and we got to talking about my new job. I told him how I was doing – I liked it, I was way less stressed and anxious, and overall, the new job seemed like a better fit for me and my personality. Yes, it was another pay cut (after already taking a pay cut when I left biglaw), but I was enjoying myself, gaining back hours in my day that would otherwise be stuck at an office, and most importantly, I was, for the first time in my life, getting home from work at a reasonable hour.
After I tried to explain to him what I did at my new job, my dad asked me an interesting question about what led me to my new gig: “Did you get fired?”
The question initially struck me as an odd one. But, when I think about it, it’s not a crazy question for my dad to ask. From the outside looking in, it does look like I must have gotten fired. What else could explain why I was doing what I’m doing?
My Reverse Career Trajectory
As a bit of background for those of you just tuning in, I spent the first four years of my legal career following a fairly traditional legal path for someone who did well in law school – good grades and law review at a top law school, three years doing litigation at one of the largest law firms in the country, then moved on to a fairly prestigious state government job.
When I left biglaw, I told myself that the main reason I’d been unhappy as a lawyer was because of the biglaw environment. The long hours, the 24/7 availability that clients expected, all of the stress and anxiety that came along with being a lawyer – none of this was good for me. But after a few months in state government, I started to realize that maybe it wasn’t the biglaw environment that was the source of my unhappiness. It was the traditional practice of law that I didn’t really enjoy.
After just one year in state government, I decided to make a radical career change, completely leaving the traditional practice of law and taking a non-practicing attorney position with a branch of my state bar association. I’m still a licensed attorney, but I no longer actually practice law anymore. So far, I’m happier for it.
Most people with my credentials wouldn’t make a career change like the one I did. What probably makes my career trajectory so odd isn’t just that I jumped out of my traditional legal career – it’s the fact that I took massive pay cuts in order to do so. Today, I’m making close to $100,000 less than what I would make if I were still sticking it out in biglaw. Even leaving my government job earlier this year ended up with me taking a $20,000 pay cut.
All of these pay cuts – this seemingly backward career slide that I’ve been doing over the past two years – provides the backdrop for my dad’s view of what’s going on in my world. It really does look like I got fired and was just desperate for any job in order to pay the bills. But that’s not what happened.
Flexibility – The Opposite Of Desperation
One of the great benefits of choosing not to live like a big shot lawyer was that it put me in a position where I didn’t need rely on a huge paycheck in order to live well. With all of the extra money that I didn’t need, I was able to pay off my student loans in just 2.5 years.
Most importantly, not living like a big shot lawyer got me used to living on less. Since I wasn’t reliant on that huge paycheck, I had the flexibility to change directions if I wanted to. I could take risks. My colleagues that chose to embrace the big shot lawyer lifestyle didn’t give themselves those choices.
Most people don’t realize it, but we limit our options simply by the lifestyle we choose. If you have a ton of fixed costs (think student loan payments, a big rent or mortgage payment, car loans, and any other kind of debt that you have to pay every month, no matter what), you necessarily limit yourself to the type of jobs you can have. If the entire world of jobs includes anything from working at a golf course for minimum wage to the super high paying, six-figure job, someone with a high fixed cost lifestyle can only work in that higher end of the job spectrum. Instead of gaining freedom with the large paycheck, the person tied to the big paycheck has placed themselves in a different position – desperation to maintain their paycheck.
I Wasn’t Fired – I Gave Myself Choices
My dad is someone who has never thought of a job as anything beyond just making money. To him, a job is something you put up. The bigger the paycheck, the more you put up with – but that’s just the nature of a job. So, the only explanation for why I would make the career moves I was making was because I’d been fired. Otherwise, I’d just stick it out and keep earning that money.
For me, a job is still about money – I’m not financially independent or anything like that yet, so I need a job in order to live. But, I don’t need as much as most people. Unlike a lot of people, I actually have the privilege and luxury of being able to access a wide spectrum of jobs that others simply cannot afford to take. Money is important, sure. But I can account for time and happiness too. That’s the beauty of having choices.
To those of you reading this (especially newer grads entering the workforce), my advice is to always maintain flexibility in your life. Careers fluctuate, incomes change – it’s never going to a smooth ride like most people seem to think. And you never know what the next few years might hold. If you’d asked me back in law school what I’d be doing now, I’m sure I wouldn’t have thought I’d be in a non-traditional attorney role like the one I’m in now.
I wasn’t fired, although I understand why someone might think that. Instead, I changed jobs because I could. Not a lot of people give themselves that choice.
Great post. You have the ability to control your life in a meaningful way, and that matters a lot. You can’t put a price on freedom.
Love this post Financial Panther. My dad had similar questions when I told him I was turning down a $140k job offer to live in a van, run our businesses, and live off our investments. FI really is all about choices and the freedom to make the choice that is best for you. Proud of you for honoring yourself and taking the job that suits you better! you rock! Excited to see you at FinCon this year! – Matt & Alli
Thanks Matt and Ali! Was great to meet you both at the last FinCon and definitely will see you in Orlando. You guys are doing alright!
Good stuff! Most careers are not as linear as our parents think. I have the same discussion with my dad on the grad school topic. He wants me to go to grad school, but I don’t want to for various reasons. It’s like if I don’t go to grad achool my career won’t go far. Got to love parents!
I wonder if things were maybe more linear back in the day. Maybe we millennials are really just lazy, good for nothings 🙂
Hopped over to your blog after reading the title on Rockstar Finance. It made me laugh.
I like the way you write… I’ll be back.
🙂
haha thanks!
Awesome post! I can relate.
Previously, I left a lucrative private practice. Now I’m dropping medical directorship stipends in order to go part-time. Many of my friends, family, and co-workers ask questions like your Dad did. It is hard to understand those who make nontraditional choices. I have no doubt that I’m heading in the right direction with these changes, even though continuing to grind it out would be more socially acceptable. We get only one life. We need to live it in the best way for us and us alone – even if it is hard to explain to others.
Thank you Doc! Exactly right – we have one life. Live it in the best way that works for you! Thanks for sharing your story – I imagine you get the same curious looks too.
I can see your dads position but also ultimately agree with your decision. Work, even with FIRE will represent a huge portion of your life for decades. Life is about being happy in all phases, not just after you make retirement. That means that if a high paying job kills your quality of life, and you can afford to walk away, you should. You can’t take the money with you.
See, my dad would just say tough it out. He didn’t like his job either and regularly worked 12+ hour days. That’s just not something I want to do.
Good introspection! My dad always push me to do more, but when I did less, he didn’t question it.
In retrospect, was working at the government a mistake? One year is pretty short to be in a new position. What was the main reason for the change? Am I have to go read a post you wrote.
In a way, are you becoming the law your version of all the physicians and doctors who want to FIRE? Could be a great branding element!
Happy holidays!
Sam
Hey Sam. Thanks for stopping by!
In retrospect, working in the government wasn’t necessarily a mistake – I think it showed me that it wasn’t biglaw that I was having a problem with so much as it was just practicing law in general. I got so caught up in the prestige and everything that I never really asked myself, do I actually like practicing law? (The answer was, no). It’s funny, I was a litigator but never really asked myself, do I like fighting and bickering with people all day…
I wrote a post about my move to a non-traditional legal career a few months back, and the idea came to me when I started listening to a number of podcasts about unhappy lawyers. That’s when I knew I needed to do something because I just wasn’t doing so great mentally, emotionally, and physically.
I didn’t think about that, but maybe that is what I’m doing – LawyerOnFire or something like that. Never thought about that as a branding element!
I certenly see your dads confusion here. Good for you for both putting yourself in a position to take a pay cut and for actually doing it. Very few are in that position and even fewer take advantage of it.
Thanks Jason. I gave myself the option to try something new, in any event. So not out of desperation, but out of having options and flexibility.
Congratulations on your career change. You have worked hard and optimized your financial situation. As the result, you now have options and opportunities that are not available to most. One of the main benefits of reaching financial independence at a young age is that it allows you to do what truly makes you happy.
Thanks Dave! Still not financially independent myself yet (far off from it), but being able to live on less and be happy gives you so many more options and ways to make it in the world.
I love the fact that you chose to give yourself more flexibility and choices, regardless of how it looks from the outside. It’s like you found a hidden gold mine that others can’t see/find… the power of finding the right fit for you vs the expected or the “normal track” 🙂
So far, so good! My wife is enjoying that I’m home from work at more reasonable hours and it’s very interesting to see this entire world of lawyers and the legal community that I never even knew existed before.
Great post Kevin, the way you highlight your counter intuitive approach to the time vs money dilemma is well articulated.
An alternative approach may have been to keep your hand in while reducing your working hours, financially a similar result but more control of your time. That said if the practicing of law wasn’t making you happy then half your time spent being miserable is still too much!
Not a bad idea to go part-time if you can swing it. It’s very difficult to do in the legal world unless you work for yourself – with the focus on billable hours, not too many law firms are willing to let someone go part time and bill half the hours! I have had some folks say I should’ve just gone out on my own with my own firm, but I always tell them that, if I’m starting a business for myself, it definitely wouldn’t be as a lawyer! I’d try to do something much more fun!
I love this. It’s so counterintuitive to how we think a career trajectory should go. Even though you aren’t FI you’ve put yourself in a position to be able to do so much more than your peers.
I did get fired (well laid off) and when I ran my numbers I realized that I didn’t need nearly as much as I was getting paid to maintain my current lifestyle. I could live on even less if I didn’t have a student loan payment (albeit a low one) and a mortgage.
My family’s reaction to where I want to take my career has been mixed. I don’t think it occurs to most people to simply not spend everything you earn. Way to go for setting your life up so you can do work that fulfills you beyond just a paycheck.
“Today, I’m making close to $100,000 less than what I would make if I were still sticking it out in biglaw. Even leaving my government job earlier this year ended up with me taking a $20,000 pay cut.” I can definitely see why your Dad asked you if you got fired. I like how you leveraged your higher income in biglaw to pay off your debt, then moved towards a more flexible lifestyle and work that you enjoyed more. I think a lot of people would like to do the same thing, but they just feel pressure to continue to make more and more money. Good stuff!
I really respect the decision you made, Kevin. I’ve lived most of my career life fearing losing my job — especially since getting laid off right after the 9-11 recession years ago. Flexibility is what financial independence grants you. It’s a wonderful thing if you can achieve it.
“Instead of gaining freedom with the large paycheck, the person tied to the big paycheck has placed themselves in a different position – desperation to maintain their paycheck.”
This unfortunately seems to happen to many people that I meet, particularly those who are in their 40’s and 50’s. It’s like they don’t know how to control themselves from spending. One client told me he never paid attention to his expenses because he always knew he would make more money. Well, now he is not making more money and can’t keep up the lifestyle he made for himself.
Kevin, you graduated when the economy was a mess and it will impact you and others like you for the rest of your life. Something very similar to those who lived through the great depression of 1929 – 1938.
I like to think about skills rather than job. People with relevant skills will always find work of their choosing which is what you are doing. Tom
“Most people don’t realize it, but we limit our options simply by the lifestyle we choose.”
Love the way your mind works, Kevin. In 2006, Mrs. G and I killed our debt by moving from Long Island to Charlotte. I took a step back professionally too. I went from making $75-80K a year to making $45-50K a year. But it was the best move I ever made. Getting rid of debt allowed me to make less but live more. Great post, my friend.
Thank you very much Mr. Groovy! Your story is awesome and is one that everyone should be hearing (your latest ChooseFI podcast was awesome).
Being in that position to “make less, but live more” is exactly the position I wanted to place myself in.
I admire people who quit jobs for less paying but more satisfying ones. It’s one thing to be able to afford it but it still takes guts to do it.
I mean, it might be more stupidity than guts, haha.
Hey FP, have you ever calculated your hourly rate at each job inclusive of ‘off the clock’ hours you were expected to be available? I’m guessing your pay cut wasn’t so dramatic once you got more of your time back in your current gig. You know as well as I do the declining marginal utility of money and inversely correlated value of time. ?
That’s a good point. I did the math once and basically, my buddy that was working at a federal government office was making more than me – he had a flat 40 hour work week, never worked more than 40 hours, and basically, his hourly wage was higher.
Sometimes you need to go backward to move forward. My trajectory has been a total zig zag. I feel like some people just can’t imagine not advancing in life without feeling like they’re doing something wrong. Thankfully my mom doesn’t have any clue what I do! Like you, I took an unpaid internship when I was in my mid-20s, which I could afford to do, because also like you, I had been saving steadily and living below my means. You’re so right that those habits set you up for options and flexibility.
That’s how you’re able to zig-zag I’m sure. It’ll be helpful to you in the future.
“One of the great benefits of choosing not to live like a big shot lawyer was that it put me in a position where I didn’t need rely on a huge paycheck in order to live well.” I am all for looking for a silver lining in a storm cloud but I have to call BS whenever anyone tries to make earning less into a benefit of some kind. Less money never gives you more choices, money gives you choices and flexibility. We are not required to inflate our lifestyle when our income increases. And unless you want to stipulate (like that legal language from an engineer, not too shabby eh?) that you aren’t really in control of yourself you will have to admit that staying in Big Law would have allowed you to pay off your loans even faster. I don’t argue you should stay in a miserable job but I do argue that you should try to find a fun job with less hours and stress that still pays as much or more than Big Law. I’m not criticizing, just suggesting that it doesn’t have to be a choice between less income and work that you hate. There might be a third choice that includes higher income and fun work. In my case I loved work from day one and they threw a ton of money at me so I’m not speaking from experience here, just sayin…
So, I guess I could say a few things. First, I paid off my student loans while I was in biglaw. It’s what made it possible for me to do that – no denial there. I gritted my teeth and did it because that was my goal. I literally left big law as soon as my debt was gone (I paid off all of my loans in June 2016, then left that job a week later to try my hand at practicing in the public sector).
I don’t think I was trying to say that making less money is better. Obviously, if the choice comes down to it, make more money and have a good job. I think what I was trying to get at was that I wasn’t tied to that paycheck. I definitely didn’t mean to imply that the only way to have a good job is to have a crappy salary. There are options out there, no doubt about it.
OK, sorry, I read too fast for my brain to keep up. Plus if what you are doing right now is great for you then yeah, you make plenty of money now too. In fact tons of readers here would love making that much. And in my case I could have made more in my career if pursuing it had been my primary goal so maybe I was right where you are now, I just never had to change jobs to find out since I liked mine from day one. I do think some people see life as a choice between “selling out” and making serious money or doing something rewarding for slave wages. Obviously you aren’t one of those and the truth is probably that the optimum work is not always going to be the maximum wage. In any case you write extremely well and I appreciate you posting interesting content now that I’m early retired and have more time to read.
Thanks! I think we all make choices between maximum wage we can earn vs. whatever it is we like to do. I definitely don’t think there’s only selling out vs. not selling out. I do think that there are a lot of people stuck in jobs they don’t like because they have to – basically every biglaw lawyer I know is dreaming of the day they can leave. You have to wonder what’s stopping them, and my guess is, it’s the paycheck, which is understandable, but not the best position to be in.
Hello, I too agree that money gives you choices and flexibility. But there are certain expectations in BigLaw that are very restrictive. You’re expected to constantly be available and willing to drop everything to handle an issue for a client or a partner. This translates to very long hours and very high stress. You mention that you would recommend looking for another job that pays equal or higher for fewer hours and stress. I am genuinely curious as to where you have seen fun, low stress, and low hours jobs that will pay $180k (or more) to a 25yo straight out of law school that has no experience and where this would be their first “real job”. Because I certainly would like to apply there!
At the end of the day you have to do what makes you happy, even if it bucks conventional “wisdom.” I just took a new job as well. I didn’t take a pay cut per say but the trajectory of my comp will probably slow down compared to what it would have done if I stayed in my previous job. What I gained though was a predictable schedule and no more demanding clients. I think in the end my sanity is worth it. Glad you’re enjoying the new career.
Your sanity is priceless – that’s a pay raise in itself!
My question is what led you to law school in the first place? Most law students aspire to be practicing lawyers. Now you are not a practicing lawyer so maybe law school was the start of a misguided path. I am an engineer. Recently, a friend from engineering school told me that even after getting an advanced degree in electrical engineering that he wishes he could go back and be an accounting major and subsequently an accountant. I asked him if this was a new realization or did he harbor latent desires to be an accountant as an undergraduate. He said his father (who was an accountant) pushed him into engineering and he was too weak to defy him. I felt sad for him because it’s been 20 years since we were undergraduates and he has worked as an engineer for that time with this sentiment.
Going back to you, do you think you went down the wrong career path and you are now correcting the path? I’m not referring to the hours or the lifestyle but the actual practice of law. If I read correctly, you went to law school for three years, practiced law for 4 years and now have a job not practicing law. Couldn’t you have skipped the first seven years of the previous sentence, avoided the law school tuition & be essentially at the same place; maybe not the same job but the similar type of work or at least work that pays similarly and allows for your current lifestyle?
I read in another post you enjoyed law school but not the practice of law. I know that sentiment well. I enjoyed be a college student. Learning is what I enjoy most. You can’t separate the law school experience from who you are today but like your father, I look at your situation and come to a conclusion which may or may not be accurate.
Lot to unpack here. What led me to law school is what leads a lot of people to law school – they have no idea what to do. I graduated college in 2009, in the midst of the biggest recession in a generation. It’s not a coincidence that law school applications went through the roof during those years. Unlike other professional schools, law school has very few barriers to entry (no pre-requisites, no interviews). Contrast that to something like med, dental, pharmacy, etc, which require you to have certain science pre-reqs. I literally could not even apply to med or dental school without going back to college and taking 2 more years of science classes.
If I could go back, no I would not have gone to law school. I would have instead tried my hand at something entrepreneurial. Unfortunately, there’s just no way to know what you’ll like/not like until you get out there and do it. But, without law school, I wouldn’t be who I am today either. And I kind of like who I am now.
Based on your answer, your career path is quite predictable. You never wanted to be a lawyer. You went to law school because you didn’t know what to do with your life, probably couldn’t get a job upon graduation and met the entrance requirements for law school.
I won’t say law school was a waste of time because the skills you learned can be applied elsewhere and it shaped the person you are today. I will say that you probably could have achieved much of the same experiences at a fraction of the cost if you had gone done many other paths. Essentially you used law school & 4 years of practicing law to orientate your career. Many people in your position would have been dissuaded by the law school tuition to enter a legal career for the reason you state.
This statement is very telling “And I kind of like who I am now.” The implication being you “kind of didn’t like who [you were] before.” I can understand – working long hours in a field you don’t want to be working in can bring dissatisfaction with your life.
Similar to another person’s comments, it appears you have never had a job you are passionate about. That’s a shame. You said it yourself – “For me, a job is still about money.” When I was young, the mantra was find your passion, get a job in that field and everything will work out. That’s what I did and everything has worked out so far. It certainly helped that my passion was engineering which is a relatively well paid field. However, the long hours don’t seem so burdensome when you are working on something you greatly enjoy.
One thing I’d point out is that law is one of the only professional fields that someone can stumble into. You really can’t do that with other fields, which I think attributes to the high burnout rate and low job satisfaction.
Think about engineering for example. You literally cannot become an engineer unless you major in engineering – which is something that you have to actively decide to do. I’d imagine the actual work of engineering isn’t so different from what you studied too.
In contrast, law school has no prerequisites and the actual process of law school is pretty much nothing like the practice of law. I majored in History and Econ. Most lawyers you talk to will have similar types of random liberal arts majors. It’s hard for a 22-year-old kid to know what their passion is, but I’m glad you found yours.
My real passion was literature but I didn’t think I could make a living with an English Lit degree so I went with my second interest – math & science. The study of engineering is very different than the practice of engineering. You think you will design the machine but on your first day of work, you discover the machine is already built and you are just feeding inputs into the machine and interpreting the outputs. Occasionally you fix the machine or modify it but by and large, they dumb down the process so it can be repeated and to reduce errors.
“It’s hard for a 22-year-old kid to know what their passion is…”
True but that 22 year old doesn’t need to go into 5 or 6 digit debt while trying to find it. When you say “stumble into” you are conveniently overlooking the tuition. That’s like saying “I stumbled into $100,000 in student debt over three years.” It was a very deliberate choice to assume the debt for a degree that you seemed luke-warm about from the beginning.
I know a lot of people can take or leave Suze Orman, but the one thing that she’s said that’s resonated with me is “the purpose of money is to give you security”. You bought your security by paying off your big debts and living below your means. We get to live just this one life, and how fortunate that you’ve figured out at an early age what it takes to make you happy.
Right you are!
I can understand why your dad asked the question. Society is used to people’s salaries going up over time. That’s often not true for a lawyer!
“What probably makes my career trajectory so odd isn’t just that I jumped out of my traditional legal career – it’s the fact that I took massive pay cuts in order to do so.”
I think it’s quite normal to take a massive pay cut to jump out of the legal field. Most people just don’t understand why you’d invest so much time in a legal education to end up outside the profession. You don’t seem to have that problem though – no “sunk cost” fallacy for you. How have you been able to make the choice that makes you happy without getting caught up in societal pressure?
Totally agree with you Biglaw. In a lot of ways, biglaw attorneys are like football players – you get a few years of huge income, then a potentially big drop. Probably more true for litigators that jump into public sector, since from the folks I’ve talked to, it seems like in-house corporate gigs still pay well. It might also be a little bit different in the midwest since we have lower market salaries (when I started biglaw, starting market rate was $110k, today it’s $140k). A friend of mine left to go to in-house at a non-profit in DC and says her salary is higher than it was as a 4th year associate here.
Honestly, as for how to avoid the societal pressure, I think it’s because I do all this low-level sharing economy stuff so I stay pretty grounded. My view of the world is really skewed now since I do these service gigs on the side.